How to get other adults on board with PDA parenting — without fighting for validation

Host Casey Ehrlich coaches Danielle, a mom of two adopted children, on practical strategies for bringing resistant spouses and grandparents into the PDA parenting approach — no diagnosis required.

If you've ever felt like the only adult in your household who truly understands your child — while your partner dismisses your approach and grandparents keep stepping in — this episode is for you. Casey walks Danielle through a concrete communication framework, a data-tracking system, and a two-week experiment that gets skeptical family members on board without ever needing them to believe in PDA.

Full description

Danielle is a mom of two children adopted from South Korea. Her almost nine-year-old son has been diagnosed with ADHD and sensory processing disorder — but after discovering PDA just two months ago, everything clicked. She already sees results. The problem? Her husband shuts down when she mentions PDA, her parents keep stepping in at the dinner table, and she's exhausted from feeling like she has to fight for her own approach in her own home.

In this live coaching session, Casey helps Danielle stop trying to convince the adults around her and start using tools that actually work. Casey introduces the PLATO method for making calm, boundary-setting requests of resistant family members, explains how to track three key nervous system indicators to build an undeniable evidence base, and offers a practical two-week experiment that invites skeptical partners into the process without requiring anyone to accept a diagnosis.

The conversation also covers why PDA is uniquely hard for outsiders to believe, how to interpret behavior like meltdowns through a PDA lens, what to do when a grandparent intervenes in the moment, and what it sounds like when a child finally has language for their own nervous system experience — including one unforgettable moment when Danielle's son describes dysregulation as "a big animal trapped in a small cage."

Key Sections

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Casey: Hi, everyone. I'm Casey Ehrlich, and welcome to parenting PDA your way. I'm a mom of two PDA children and the founder of PeaceParents. Once a week on Fridays, I coach a parent of a pathologically demand avoidant child or teen to help that parent achieve more stability and peace in their home. In doing so, my goal is to help them and you practice new skills and bring non judgment, compassion, and perhaps a little humor to the trickiest situations we all face. So without further ado, let's welcome our parent. Good morning. Hello.

[00:00:39] Danielle: How are you?

[00:00:40] Casey: I'm pretty good. How are you, Danielle?

[00:00:42] Danielle: I'm doing good. Enjoying a nice little snowy day here. Yeah. Where are you located? I am in North Idaho, right in the Panhandle. Okay.

[00:00:52] Casey: Cool. It was just snowing outside my window as I was waiting to jump on with you.

[00:00:58] Danielle: Yeah. It's still snowing here, but yesterday, we had, like, 80 mile an hour winds, and the schools were out, and roads were so close. So today, I'm just enjoying that it's nice and peaceful snow.

[00:01:08] Casey: Okay. Good. Good. Well, we will have a nice and peaceful conversation as well. I love that.

[00:01:14] Danielle: Yes. Looking forward to it.

[00:01:16] Casey: Awesome. Well, thanks for being here. I have your question that you've submitted, and I'm happy to read it. Or if you wanna state your question, that's fine too. Whatever feels more Sure.

[00:01:28] Danielle: I can state it or you can. I guess I will. So I am newer to PDA within the past couple of months, but realize my instinct with my almost nine year old is to connect, then direct, then follow through without threat. My husband will step in over me with demands when he is triggered. My parents who also help us with caregiving also get triggered and see things through disrespect and shame lenses. So my question is, how do I get the other adults on board and trust me that this is the best way to help my son? I feel like I've made the most progress and that they need to get their stuff together.

[00:02:02] Casey: Yeah. This is very, very common. In fact, if you weren't saying this, I would be like, oh, that's very unusual. So I just wanna normalize the fact that you're sort of leading the charge. And usually and you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong here. It's often, not always, but almost always, the primary connection and caregiver, which is usually the woman in the home, and they feel viscerally the experience of parenting a PDAer, which is like you feel in your nervous system the cost of setting boundaries and placing demands because you know what the the reaction it's gonna be and the impact on your nine year old. Is that accurate?

[00:02:49] Danielle: Yeah. Like, everything is based on, okay. How is he gonna react? What is the best approach to every situation? Because, otherwise, it's constant battles all day long, and we don't want that.

[00:02:59] Casey: Yeah. So can you talk to me a

[00:03:02] Danielle: Little bit about how long you've been working through the PDA lens? Literally, I just so I've heard about PDA before. My son has ADHD, sensory processing disorder, and disorganized attachment. So those are the things he's been diagnosed with, but he's also adopted from South Korea. Both my kids are adopted from South Korea. I also have a little girl who turns six this weekend. So six year old and almost nine year old. So the PDA lens, it's like I've heard about PDA before, and I had understood, oh, that sounds a lot like my son, but I hadn't really dove into it until a friend of mine who has an autistic son that we become really close the past year or so, and she's been her son's PDA. And I was like, gosh. A lot of the things that she talks about is exactly like how my son is. And I'm like, but he's not autistic, but there's so many similarities. And so I just had asked her, what are some resources that you've looked into for PDA that you can, like, share with me so I can just kind of peruse through it and see see what tools I can add to my tool belt? So that was, like, the December. And as soon as I did that, I literally was reading as much as I could. And then, like, all your master classes became available, and I was like, okay. I literally watched every single one back to you. So I just was, like, absorbing as much as I could, but I I honestly felt like there was this click. It just for me, everything made sense because there's been so many approaches that we've done, different parenting styles. I've done the gentle parenting, and I just have everyone around me feeling like, you let your son walk all over you.

[00:04:34] Danielle: And I'm like, I really don't, but there's boundaries that are there, but it's how I approach it is very different than how the typical world responds to children, and he just is very different. So I feel like I've already seen through this lens from day one, but Okay. I didn't have a term for it. I didn't have the words behind it, and I didn't under have the understanding that it was a nervous system threat. I didn't understand that piece until a couple months ago, but now that I do, it makes sense because I understand now where he's at in his brain that he's not even to a thinking point because I've always seen as he's melted down, I mean, when he was little, like, 18 old, like, when we first met him, he would, like, let throw himself down on the ground, and it would be this huge meltdown over the word no. And we're like, okay. It's just a cultural thing. It's just because he's from Korea, he was treated like a little prince and given everything that he wanted. But it was all the time. You know? And you're like, what eight what 18 old is really throwing tantrums? That's not very typical and, like, throwing themselves on the ground and crying. And that was when I was like, okay. This is a little bit different. And I've always seen it as when I've when he was able to put words to it and I could ask him questions afterwards that when he was a little bit older, he was like, mama, I can't control my body. When I don't he doesn't remember anything that happens

[00:05:51] Casey: Mhmm.

[00:05:51] Danielle: During his meltdowns. He doesn't remember if he was violent. He doesn't remember if he put a hole through the wall. He doesn't remember if he knocked someone down. He doesn't remember anything. And all he can tell me is that he's just, like, disconnected completely from his body. So he's been able to tell me that since he was, like, three years old because he and I sit and talk afterwards. Like, I know I can't talk to him during, but afterwards, I try and, like, understand him because I'm so in tune with him, and he's so in tune with me.

[00:06:19] Casey: Yeah. That's really helpful. Okay. So I just wanna, like, get some nuance here so I understand your situation before we dive in. So I've worked with a lot of families who have come from the adoption or foster care space. Mhmm. And often, challenges have been looked at through the attachment lens. Yes. A 100%. Or the trauma lens. Right? And so there is some overlap. Right? But often, there can also be PDA, right, which is a different lens which says, from birth, this human has neurodivergence, which in addition to something like ADHD or autism means they have a survival drive for autonomy and perceived equality that's so strong that it will override things like eating, sleeping, hygiene, safety, and or toileting. So do you feel like your child has both disorganized attachment and a PDA neurotype or brain wiring, or do you think it's more PDA what's going on?

[00:07:32] Danielle: Well, honestly, since diving into PDA, I'm questioning all the diagnosis that he currently has because they even being given those diagnoses, I didn't always feel like it was a 100% accurate. Like, it didn't fit all the boxes, so to speak. So now coming from a PDA lens, I'm not sure disorganized attachment is really what he has because we've done attachment therapy, and instead of things getting better, it got worse. Yeah.

[00:07:59] Casey: Yeah. That's very common to hear.

[00:08:02] Danielle: And so I'm just like, okay. So if it's not attachment, which is the lens that we've been coming from from adoption, what is it? I mean, I already know he has trauma. I already know for him, it's been from the moment he was in the womb. I know that. But I also I believe he was born this way. He it's not something that his body adapted to based on his history or based on the trauma of adoption or coming to another country. I believe this is just this is just who he is. It's not something that's controllable or or honestly changeable.

[00:08:31] Casey: Mhmm. Okay. Let's dive in then given the PDA lens. So the PDA lens is gonna be very, very hard for other people in your life to get on board with because unlike some of the observable indicators that we might see with a autistic child who has more stereotypical behaviors or doesn't act, quote, neurotypical. A PDA child may appear very neurotypical in certain settings. And for many, there's a high degree of masking. So, like, you're gonna see different and this might not be true for your son, but you're gonna see different patterns. Like, at school, he might seem fine and typical and then come home and let out all the nervous system activation and or have struggle accessing a basic need because that's where control is sort of focused with him. Do you see that pattern?

[00:09:32] Danielle: Yes. A 100%. So when he we went originally went to a Waldorf school for kindergarten and first grade. So it's when at Waldorf schools, it's the same teacher that actually goes up with them normally until, like, sixth grade. So it's his kindergarten teacher was also his first grade teacher. And every parent meeting that we had, one of her comments was how good of a job that we had done with attachment, like, how in tune he was with us. Because what she saw, it was he would start the beginning of the week, and he'd be okay. And by Wednesday, he would start to escalate and need more one on one, care or attention. And then by Thursday, normally, he was being sent home. And I was being called to come pick him up because he couldn't handle it. There was dysregulation, or he would be disturbing the entire class because he needed the one on one with the teacher. And so at the end of the kindergarten year, that's when she had come to me and said, you need to get him diagnosed because I need someone in the classroom with him pretty much at all times so that I can be present for the other students because he needs more one on one care. Yeah. Not care, but attention.

[00:10:37] Casey: Yeah. Signals of nervous system safety. So the fact saying to me yes.

[00:10:41] Danielle: Sorry. Sorry. Just I wanna finish my thought on that because I didn't finish there. So her comment was she can tell, like, coming off of break or if we've been on vacation that his cup was well, she described it that his cup was, like, really full and that he he would do excellent coming to school, and he was attentive and, not disruptive and listening, but that the further away that time got, the more dysregulated he would get. And so that was interesting for an outsider to be able to see that, that it was about the time with us kept him more regulated, and the more away from us he was, he was dysregulated. So now we're we're homeschooling, but it's more unschooling. We're not really doing a a plan right now.

[00:11:20] Casey: Okay. Cool. So yeah. Like, what you've described is very much the five characteristics that I typically look for when I'm helping a parent understand PDA, which is a survival drive for autonomy and equality equalizing behavior, which is control, criticism, or aggression towards the safest person in the home Or if they have a sibling, it could be the safest and or the weakest. So I don't know if he does that towards the six year old. Yes.

[00:11:48] Danielle: Mostly towards me, but he equalizes towards her.

[00:11:52] Casey: Yeah. So, again, going back to your question, the assumption of usually the dad or the grandparents who observe this because the child doesn't do it with them Mhmm. Is you're a pushover, and that's why they're equalizing with you because you allow it versus the fact that the child is masking or internalizing the threat response. They're still having it when they're around the other people, whether it's a teacher, a dad, a ma another mom, or grandparents. It's gonna be internalized, but the third characteristic is accumulation in the nervous system. So that's what your Waldorf teacher is describing from her observation is like Yes. Okay. You know, when he's at in a group setting where he doesn't have full autonomy, nervous system safety, and equality, it's building, building, building. And by Friday, he's tipping over and needing to come home. So we have survival drive for autonomy equalizing cumulative nervous system activation, masking, and then need for one on one undivided attention, which is like that needing to constantly ping with another safe nervous system, which is what the Waldorf teacher said of, like, we need another person in here who can give him that undivided attention.

[00:13:12] Danielle: So Or even at home, it's

[00:13:14] Casey: Mom, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom. Totally.

[00:13:32] Danielle: Your seven year old's like, mom, where are you? Why can't you be with me right now?

[00:13:35] Casey: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So these five characteristics of PDA, which you obviously know, and even if you couldn't name them, had intuited and observed as the primary caregiver, actually make it really hard for other people to believe you. Right? Really? Yes. I've been through it. So one of the tools we can bring, like, a mindset shift that I had to learn the hard way and that now I coach parents on so they don't have to go through, like, the the pain, judgment, and isolation that I felt as a mom, which is like, am I crazy? Am I creating this? Am I am I a pushover? Am I causing him to act like that? And then when I did move into changing, it was I received a lot of judgment. I still receive a lot of judgment on the Internet, right, of just like, what what the hell are you talking about, woman? Right? And so what I've found the hard way is that when we spend too much time trying to convince someone of a diagnosis like PDA or depend too much on information about it, they shut down. They're just like, no. Give me proof. Like, it's not in the diagnostic statistical manual or you don't have an MD PhD or, like, someone at Harvard didn't say it, so it's not real.

[00:15:00] Danielle: Right?

[00:15:00] Casey: That's what it

[00:15:01] Danielle: Sounds like exactly what my pediatrician said.

[00:15:03] Casey: Yeah. Which is okay. Like, that's fine. However

[00:15:08] Danielle: I know my child.

[00:15:09] Casey: However, you know, I do have a PhD and two master's degree, and I've been around lots of arrogant people with lots of acronyms after their name. And so I have learned that the way that we have to communicate with them is not arguing over labels and diagnoses, but rather using tools to communicate and concrete data that you observe that can be framed in a way that bridges the communication gap. So because we're talking about your husband and your grandparents, I think we don't need to depend as much on data, but more on using some nonviolent communication requests, which do not require them to believe in PDA at all. You're just gonna be getting into making requests about either getting on board to help you or not judging you and bothering you as you do this different approach, to put it simply.

[00:16:06] Danielle: Okay. So, like, for instance, like, my parents, you know, like, we're having a family meal and my son starts attacking at me or calls me names or says, you know, mom, you're fat or mom, I don't like you or whatever the thing is. And my choice is to ignore it and to just shut it down, and I don't have any emotion over it. And then he can stay calm and move on. But then as that continues, my dad will step in and be like, you can't talk to your mom like that. You know, that's not okay. And I've sat down with them, and I've explained to them, let me parent. Let me be the parent. Just be the grandparents. Just you guys love and adore my kids, but it's not your job to step over me. I don't need your protection. I don't need you to stick up for me. I'm good. You Just so I've I've had those conversations before, but if you could help me with what to do in the moment to stop it because that also is creating an escalation in my son's body.

[00:17:04] Casey: Yeah. So why don't we do both? Why don't we do a nonviolent communication request ahead of time, talk about how that intersects with your boundaries, and then if it does happen again, what to say in the moment. How does that Okay. Sounds great. So what is a nonviolent communication request? So there's a acronym that we can use called PLATO, which is person, location, action, timing, and object if there is one. So we're just making a request and then getting data from their response ahead of time about, are they gonna say yes? Are they gonna say no, but I'll do this instead or no? And that gives us data about whether or not we need to set a boundary, which is our behavior in response to their observed reaction. So let's ground it with this situation. So let's say before you go or before they come over or before you go to their house to have a meal together, you have prepared a PLATO request about not saying anything to your son when he is calling you fat, swearing, or getting upset at the dinner table. K? So what that would look like is, I'd like to make a request to start it off, or can we talk about something? When you come over for Sunday dinner, you, grandparents, and we're sitting at the dinner table for thirty minutes, I would like to request that you don't say anything to John if he says things that are rude or inappropriate to me for the duration of the entire dinner.

[00:18:52] Casey: Is that possible? Okay? And so there's no, like, normative argument or philosophical argument or does PDA exist. It's just, are you willing to do this? Right? And so they might say, yes. Right? And then we have to see their behavior, which we're gonna get to. Or they might say, no. I can't do that in my own home, or I can't do that when I'm coming to your home. I can't let him speak to you like that. And then you have more information about whether or not dinner's gonna work. Or they might say, you know, yes, but I might need to get up from the dinner table and take a breath. And you can say, that's fine, dad or mom. That's fine. Like, I get it. It's hard. But we have, like, a little more collaboration and communication in the the yes or the no, but. Okay? So that's the first step, and then and they're required to respond. They're not required to respond, but you're asking them yes or no. So how do you think your parents would respond to that?

[00:20:05] Danielle: I think my mom would say yes. I think my dad would say, I'm not sure I could do that. Okay.

[00:20:11] Casey: So with that data point, that's their behavior. Right? You can't control other people's behavior. You're learning this and have learned this. Like, we know this as moms of PDA Like, you really can't control other people's behavior. You can only control your own. So with that data point, then it becomes your responsibility to decide, do I have a meal where my dad is at the table with my son? Because he stated he can't, like, follow that request. So it put kinda puts the onus of responsibility back onto you, but also the agency that you have. K? But let's say they're like, yes. We'll do that. And then you have the dinner, and your son is saying, mom, you're fat. You're stupid. Like, this meal sucks or whatever it is. And your dad says, you can't talk to your mom like that. Instead of trying to change your dad's behavior, there's a couple things you can do. You can do nothing. You could say, I'm gonna get up with my son, and we're gonna go to a different room and take a breath. You could say like, in the moment, you could say, dad, it's okay. Like, John is activated. I'm fine. Right? So you have choices, but, really, we're just focusing on your behavior instead of focusing on trying to change anyone else's. Does that make sense?

[00:21:42] Danielle: Absolutely. So

[00:21:44] Casey: When we do this, it's a little scary. Right? Like, personally, I when I set boundaries, I get, like,

[00:21:54] Danielle: Shaky and, like, a little bit dissociative and my heart races, but I look at that as part and parcel to the practice. So, like, how are you feeling as I'm talking about that as a potential? I've done it. And and I'll, like, I'll say, I've got this. And it and sometimes we do need to leave the room, or I kinda, like, body body wise, have him where he's behind me so he's not part of the conversation that I'm then having with my son until I get that back under control. But I'm the same way. Like, I get I feel like I get hot. I get flushed. My heart races, and I'm just like, why do I have to add this layer on of another adult that needs to just stay out of it, honestly?

[00:22:38] Casey: Yeah. And so that's where we wanna be really neutral and objective in observing the data of your father's behavior and then deciding if a family meal is working for your family right now.

[00:22:52] Danielle: And that's hard when you have, you know, different dynamics where well, when else do you spend time together if it's not a family meal? You know? Because it's it's the holly whatever. It's a situation that happens pretty much anytime we're together or even my own family's together and we go somewhere and do something.

[00:23:12] Casey: Yeah. And so it becomes a choice. Right? It becomes so if we're always putting both the freedom of choice and the responsibility of choice back on ourselves, which sucks. Like, we wanna change other people's behavior, but, really, it's our own embodiment that changes other people's behavior, especially when there's resistance on a identity level. Right? Because, like, what your father is feeling, I presume, is that, like, he loves you unconditionally, and he loves your son. But likely, the way that he was educated and conditioned around what makes a good parent and what makes a good child and how to ensure that the child is successful and grows up to be good is a different set of assumptions than you're working with. Right? And and he has his identity connected to that. So, like, when someone sees you, whether it's a friend, whether it's a stranger at the park, whether it's, you know, a teacher at the Waldorf School or your father doing a radically different approach to what they did, it becomes a mirror, which is super uncomfortable if someone hasn't done some inner work of, you know what? It's okay that she's taking a different approach because I'm confident in the approach that I experienced as a child or, like, how I experienced my childhood and how I raised my kids.

[00:24:39] Casey: And it's okay that it's different. But when when it just confronts someone where it's like, oh, there's a different way and, like, maybe maybe I should have been softer. Like, that's really confronting to people. Right? So what do they do? They take their discomfort, and they put it on your shoulders. And that's a human trait. Right? Especially, you know, I'll just say, like, with not all, but, like, the boomer generation, they didn't have the type of self work and reflection that a lot of, like, millennials and onward had. Right? Yeah. So I'm seeing your father with a lot of compassion and also you with a lot of compassion, but understanding that sometimes, unfortunately, what a grandparent will respond to is a boundary. Not a, like, let me do this, which is you telling him to let you do this. Like, I want you to have this behavior. It's right now, it's too activating for my son to have a meal when he's getting yelled at. And, like, I get that you can't you feel like you need to do this because you love him and you love me, but right now, it's not gonna work for our family to have that activation for my son.

[00:26:00] Danielle: And that also may create the acceptance of the boundary easier too by setting that standard, by saying that.

[00:26:08] Casey: Because there's a there's a behavioral consequence, which is like, oh, like, she's not just saying it. Like, it's it's important enough that she's gonna make that decision to not have him exposed to this. Like, it's not a preference. It's a need. Like, your son has a nervous system disability. Right? If that's how I mean, that's how I conceptualize PDA because in accumulation and in burnout, it does disable our children from accessing life. Just like he is because of his cumulative nervous system stress, he's been disabled from Waldorf, from accessing learning. Right? And we see it also in basic needs. And it's not a visible disability necessarily unless you're in the home and seeing how much they're struggling twenty four seven, not in this classroom or in the one hour therapy or the grandparent visit, but, like,

[00:27:04] Danielle: The Day in and day out.

[00:27:06] Casey: Yeah. It's a it's not a preference. It's not like I don't because my parenting philosophy is x, I don't want you to speak my child to my child like this. It is my child is disabled by his threat response, and so I can't put him in a situation like this because it might make it hard for him to eat, which is something he needs to, like, be well. So whether or not you consider your son having a disability, I think the frame for a parent shifts the way we think about these conversations and our experience of it. Can I ask you a scenario like

[00:27:45] Danielle: With my husband?

[00:27:46] Casey: Yeah. Yeah. Of course.

[00:27:48] Danielle: So a couple weeks ago, was Lunar New Year, and we live in a real small town. So we went over to Spokane, where there's more of a city to a Lunar New Year festival, and it was our first one here in Idaho. We've been to them before where there's, you know, like, lion dance and the dragon dance and drumming, and there's normally martial arts demonstrations, and it's food and different things for my my kids culturally. It's important for us to go to different things like that. So we got went to this one in in Spokane, and it was, a ticketed event, but there were some free things where there was, like, crafts for the kids ahead of time. Like, they could do, brush letter painting and throwing arrows to get, little money envelopes or different things like that. So they really enjoyed that part, of course. That was before the actual, like, opening of the doors, and we were expecting it to be what we've experienced before. So we go inside, and it's like this beautiful old Fox Theater, and it was put on by the Chinese Spokane chapter group, what have you. And it ended up being, like, a lot of old classical Chinese music and old dance. There was, like, one tai chi demonstration, and that was the gist of the whole martial arts. And it was very slow and very

[00:29:00] Casey: No dopamine. Half long. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:02] Danielle: Both my kids were like, ugh. You know, my daughter's like, she's standing up and, like, walking around, but there's chairs around us, and she's not disturbing anybody. But I could tell that she's bored, but she's not disturbing the people around us. Where my son is like, mom, when is this gonna be over? I'm so tired. Ugh. I'm so bored. And, you know, people are, like, turning around and, like, looking at us because it's a constant. Mom. Mom. Mom. Yeah. And then if he starts putting his body on me and then he's pushing against me and, you know, he's physically hurting me, and I'm trying to get him giving him options, you know, saying, you're more than welcome to go out into the lobby for a little bit and come back. Do what you need to do to to make your body okay, but you may not hurt me. And it just kept going and going, and so I waited until there was a break between numbers, so to speak. And he and I were gonna walk out and go to the lobby. Well, then my daughter followed us, and that triggers him. But we went to the lobby, went to the bathroom, got some water, and he said, mom, I think I'm calmed down enough now. I'm ready to go back, but it's really boring. I'm like, I completely agree it's boring. It's not something that, you know, we were expecting. In the meantime, my husband had gathered all of our stuff. He comes out to the lobby, and he's like, that's it. We're going home. And when we get home, you're going straight to bed after we have dinner.

[00:30:15] Danielle: So that's his reaction to my son that, you know, it was disturbing all the people around us. I understand that you're bored, but you can't act that way. And so then we proceed to get in the car, and I'm just I stay quiet and get in the car. Husband wants to stop at a store to look at something. And they said, we get there, I just need ten minutes to myself to, like, regroup, and then I'll be ready to connect back with you guys. And my son in the car was like, well, mom, can I be with you during that ten minutes? Mom, can I hold your hand? Mom, can I do this? I'm like, but I just need ten minutes. And when I had my ten minutes in the store, then I got him and he held my hand and walked around and just he and I had some time to look together. And then it still continued in the car. He's like, mom, when we go and sit and get something to eat, can I hold your hand? Can I sit next to you? Can I be this? Can I be that? So I knew it was a nervous system response. Although in my head, I was going, how is being bored? How was that a nervous system threat? So I was trying to, like, look at it through the PDA lens and really understand what part of that was triggering a fight or flight for him because it obviously, I can be bored, and I know what to do with myself.

[00:31:18] Danielle: My daughter knew what to do with herself. And so I made a comment to my husband, and he's like, stop putting labels on it. This is not why are you gotta put a three letter acronym to it to put it in a box? This is just a normal eight year old board and doesn't know what to do with himself. And so then I just, like, shut down again because I I knew that's not what it was, but I wasn't able to commune have my husband be on board to even see what I was seeing, see my observations, or be open to it. And granted by the time we got home, because it was, a two hour drive, you know, the kids weren't sent straight to my son wasn't sent straight to bed. You know, we had a snack, got ready for bed, and it was a very my son was regulated by then, and so there was no issues of going to bed or any other anything further. Because if there had been, I would have gone to his room afterwards and done the whole repair scenario that I would need to do, but I didn't need to. He was actually okay. But I just felt like that was a real disconnect for my husband and I because I tried to explain to him what I was seeing, and he just was like, shut down. I'm like, no. This is just an eight year old who's being disrespectful and doesn't know how to be in public kind of thing.

[00:32:24] Casey: Yeah. Yeah. So that's not uncommon. Let me explain to you just to make sure you understand, which is not necessarily what you would say to your husband. But remembering that the root cause of the threat perception for PDA is losses of autonomy and equality. And so those can be things that someone forces them or expects them to do, but it can also be, like, societal expectations or, like, etiquette, right, of, like, we went to this thing. It's gonna be this long. You need to sit in this space, not make noise, pay attention. Even if you weren't putting those expectations on him, his subconscious perception is so sensitive to all of that that it's gonna activate him. And then on top of that, he likely, because he's neurodivergent, has sensory issues and need for dopamine as an ADHDer. So the reason I think PDAers, regardless of whether they're ADHD, but the reason they need dopamine or seek dopamine, like sugar, screens, novelty, new things, is because they have, like, an underlying perception of discomfort in their body, like what you'd you and I were describing how it feels to set boundaries.

[00:33:51] Danielle: Mhmm.

[00:33:51] Casey: It's, like, always like that in the body. Right? And so what can distract from that feeling of discomfort is intensity, like Mhmm. Spicy food or crunchy food or, like, you know, loud noise that they make or a video game or something that is intense enough to override the internal sensation of discomfort or pain of the nervous system. So it makes total sense to me through a PDA lens why he struggled the way he did. Now the issue here is that your husband sounds like he does not believe in PDA, a, and doesn't want your child to have be viewed through a diagnosis. Is that correct?

[00:34:38] Danielle: I don't know if he doesn't want him to be viewed through a diagnosis. I think it was just that he's saying, I'm so easily able to put it in a box and label it. And that's to him, that was not what that is. That was that was just different.

[00:34:52] Casey: Yeah. So okay. And he might be right. Like, we don't we don't know someone else's internal experience unless they tell us, and and they're self aware. And so we have to depend on our observations. Right? And it's true, like what your husband said, that, like, a fidgety eight year old, he wasn't feeling how much he needed your nervous system, but, like, just observing. A fidgety eight year old who's constantly being like, mama, mama, I don't wanna sit here, looks very similar to an ADHD child, to a bored child, to a PDA child potentially that they're not right next to. Right? And so the practice becomes to change things in your home is suspending disbelief about the root cause, and this is a decision. So it's like you don't need a diagnosis of PDA. You don't even need to believe in PDA, but it is the request would be, husband, I love you, and I love our family. Would it be possible for the next two weeks, just two weeks, to view the behavior through the PDA lens and experiment with some of these accommodations and decisions that are based on that logic and see what shifts, see how it feels in our bodies and see how it feels in the home and with our son's behavior. Can we do that for two weeks? And then no one needs to believe anything. It's just a decision that you're making together to experiment for a period of time and then observe the data. Okay. So do you think your husband would be open to that? Yes. Okay. Because then it's based on observation. Right? Mhmm. And so one of the things we can learn to do with PDAers is to track the data that really relates to their neuroception and their nervous system. So there's three things that we can track. We can track the connection they have with us, the nervous system activation, however it presents for them, and their access to basic needs. So does your son struggle with a basic need?

[00:37:16] Danielle: Yes. Sleeping. Sleeping. Mhmm. Okay.

[00:37:19] Casey: What does that look like in your home?

[00:37:21] Danielle: Now if he's dysregulated, he can be up till two, three in the morning building a Lego project, looking at his Pokemon binder, listening to his podcast, and just cannot shut down. And so it gets out of that regular sleep cycle. When he was a baby, he would wake up, like, 17 times a night and sleep. And we needed to

[00:37:44] Casey: Be Oh

[00:37:44] Danielle: My body to body, and we needed to rotate, like, parents. Like, on the days my husband works Mhmm. I would be with my son, and we were in a separate room. And then the days my husband was off, he wouldn't sleep with my son, and we were sleep deprived for the first probably probably till he was about five. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we tried sleep therapy, and that was horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. I don't recommend that to anybody with a PDA child, like, especially looking back of why that didn't work. Yeah. So his basic need is honestly sleep. Because when he is regulated, he can fall asleep on his own by listening to the radio or listening to a podcast, and he's out right away. When he's not, he's thrashing around. He's moving his body and then passes out, like, passes out. Yeah. So his basic need is sleep, but also it's eating where he'll only eat one thing. And he's still in a phase right now where he's only, like, only eating popcorn and, like, microwave popcorn three times a day or only me making him some specific food at his request. But it's like popcorn is his main dietary request right now.

[00:38:55] Casey: Yeah. Got it. Same with my seven year old. And my my older son, when he was in burnout, spent two years eating popcorn, pirate's booty, and Lay's potato chips, which was not for the faint of heart as a mom. I'm sure you know. Okay. Great. So we've got our basic needs that we can track. What does his nervous system activation look like? So I heard you say, like, he's seeking that one on one attention Mhmm. Which is kind of like a indicator of mobilization, like fight or flight energy. Does he have meltdowns? Does he spend time equalizing or, like, controlling, criticizing?

[00:39:36] Danielle: All of those. So let's say for instance, he's like, mom, I don't wanna go to jujitsu today. Okay. So can we go to the pool instead? I'm like, no. We we already had a scheduled activity today. If we're gonna do something, we're gonna do the scheduled activity that you've already committed to. Well, I wanna go to the pool. Well, no. We're not gonna do that. And so it may be knocking everything off of the kitchen counter, and then his sister is there. So then he'll start picking on his sister and aggravating her, and then the dog is there. And then he'll do something mean to the dog, and it just continues to escalate unless I can get him isolated and back under control. But it'll be question will still keep going. Mom, why can't we go swimming? Mom, why can't we go swimming? Why can't you just tell me why we can't go swimming? And I'll repeat it again, and I'll say asked and answered, and he'll still keep going and keep going and keep going and keep going until he can just accept, which sometimes doesn't happen. So it can be meltdowns. It could be screaming. It could be hitting. We've seen a whole array of it, but it seems to be he's not in burnout right now because of being pulled from school for over almost a year and a half now and just doing unschooling. So he's just home with me, and I work from home. My husband when my husband stays off, they do projects around the house or projects outside, so they do physical work together, which he really enjoys doing. But he just is pretty much a homebody. Like, right now, he's on the couch with a blanket completely over his head, and he's watching my iPad and watching some cooking video on YouTube. And that's just where he wants to be. And as soon as I come out, he'd be like, mom, can you make me popcorn?

[00:41:11] Casey: Yeah. So what would you say the average is he having meltdowns now or not so much?

[00:41:19] Danielle: Not the big crying or physically hitting meltdowns. Although, let's say, I was sitting next to him on the couch and I gave him the no boundary, it's about something he may hit me, like, hit me on the legs or punch my arm or that kind of thing. But they're they're pretty they're a lot shorter. They're probably, you know, fifteen minutes to half an hour where we've had to however long ones in the past. And I'm not saying that they don't happen. It just depends on how much has where his window of tolerance has gone in his body of how big it is. Yeah. And if it's just me or if there's other people around. Because if it's just me, it's gonna be a lot bigger. If dad's around, it's a little bit less. If grandparents around, he tries to to shove it. He tries to shove it and do what he can to hide it because he doesn't want them it's almost like he doesn't want them to see it, and maybe that's part of the masking. But he'll, you know, get tears in his eyes, and I can see it, but he'll try and bring it down. And then later

[00:42:14] Casey: Yeah. It'll come out later. Like, it still is activating, and it probably affects his sleep and his eating over time too. Yeah. Yeah. So the third thing then would be, like, connection indicator. So it sounds like he's very, very connected to you. Yes. But if we were gonna track, like, the experiment to see if are starting to shift in the direction we want, I would actually think, like, we would wanna track connection indicators with your husband. And this can look like, you know, info dumping about his interest. Does he have special interest?

[00:42:52] Danielle: Yeah. So, like, when I know that he's connected, it'll be, hey, mom. Do you wanna sit down? Or dad, do you wanna sit down and and let me tell you about my Pokemon cards I traded today? Or let me show you the Lego thing that I built? Or can we snuggle on the couch? So he specifically will ask for the connection, but he generally does that with me. What he does with my husband is he'll be like, dad, can we sit and watch a movie, a family movie? And he'll cuddle up with him on the couch. So that's how I know their connection is good is when he requests that.

[00:43:19] Casey: Yeah. So squishing and parallel play or, like, sharing an activity or talking about his interest. Love it. Okay. So if I were gonna present this to a very resistant spouse who I had already tried explaining PDA too many, many times or the reasons behind what I was doing, And maybe he was like, yeah. Yeah. I get it. But then in the moment or over time isn't really his behavior isn't reflecting that. Right? I would in a moment of regulation and connection, if you can find that, because I know it's hard to even have a conversation with a partner with PDAers.

[00:44:00] Danielle: Only when the kids are asleep or not present.

[00:44:03] Casey: Yeah. Or Via text when they're on their screen. Would be, like, I'd like to ex like, really experiment with this logic for x amount of time, and let's look at his average, like, how late he's falling asleep most nights. You know? Is there three night on average, three nights a week, he's up past two. He's only asking for popcorn, and he's having an average of, like you know, he'll hit me every time I set a boundary, and he'll be dysregulated about an average of fifteen minutes afterwards. And he spends, like, x proportion of the day equalizing when he's not on a screen. And that connection would be how often he's initiating, squishing, and, you know, sharing a screen with your husband. And so it would be like like, you would pick what you think is reasonable with your husband. Like, is it a week? Is it two weeks? Is it a month? And then can we track if the baseline is getting better on those dimensions? So maybe the average of three nights a week of being up until two after two weeks of experimenting, you know, it's only two nights a week that you're seeing it or it's only one thirty. And he's still only eating popcorn, but he might be poking around at other things or asking about Pringles or, you know, licking a strawberry or something. You know, you're not gonna see this, like, overnight shift. We wanna see the trend. Trend of progress. Yes. And then with the connection, it would be really honing in on noticing and you might have to help him notice this as an indicator of, like, you know, did you see how much he shared with you today? Like, he hasn't talked to me about that at all yet. Or he asked you more than usual to squish on the couch and watch a show so that you can have some concrete data based on your experiment whether or not there's, like like, he never has to believe in PDA. Right? We only He

[00:46:13] Danielle: Just has to see a change.

[00:46:14] Casey: We just have to see what works. That's all that matters, really. It's like, what makes your child thrive as the best version of themselves in the direction that we wanna go and what gives your family more peace. Mhmm. So, like, maybe your parents never believe in PDA, or maybe your husband doesn't want to talk about PDA, and that's okay. But can they trust you enough to suspend disbelief to experiment? And I'll tell you, Danielle, like, the pattern I've seen over and over, and this is true in my life. Like, your son, his nervous system activation will come down over time. They will see differences in his well-being, but it'll take a year or two. Right? And by the time that they're like, oh, like, you really knew what you were doing, like, you'll be so far along, you won't really care anymore. But that's what will happen. But you'll know. Right? Like, you know and you'll know. And that's sort of where we have to get to as as a parent of a PDA or who is, like, leading this transformation in the home. Mhmm. How does that feel as, like, a strategy?

[00:47:30] Danielle: It feels good because I now feel like there's ways to go about it. It's like I already know where I am, and I already know that I'm there's no doubt in my mind that my son has PDA, and there's no doubt in my mind that this is what I've been searching for. There's no doubt in my mind that this is the tool that I was looking for to help me make the best progress for him. And so now now I feel like you've given me some concrete steps to not only trust myself, but how to set the boundaries, how to make the request, and how to let's try this without me having to prove or provide them things to read or prove that he is is or is not PDA. Let's just try it. Let's experiment and try it and see what happens from here. And I know just like when, you know, you want someone to change, you talked about you have to change yourself. If all I'm doing is changing myself, I know they're gonna see the difference.

[00:48:30] Casey: Yeah. They will. It doesn't go as fast as we'd like.

[00:48:33] Danielle: No. Nothing ever does. Nothing ever does.

[00:48:36] Casey: Yeah. And and I'll tell you, like, I've worked with families who you know, I I remember working with a family with an adopted child who got a fetal alcohol syndrome diagnosis, like, months after our coaching. And they were like, I didn't you know, I don't know if he's PDA because we've we got this information. And they're like, but it doesn't matter because we figured out what worked in our home. Right. Like, he's doing so much better, and we're doing so much better, and we're not blaming ourselves. So I think we can also have openness about, like, you know, he's gonna grow into a wonderful man. And, like, he may or may not identify with ADHD or PDA or whatever diagnostic label he's given, and that's okay too.

[00:49:25] Danielle: Right? You know what I find interesting, though, is, like, I've never told him the other acronyms or try not to talk about that about those acronyms around him because I didn't want him to have, like, a label. But as I've been talking with him about PDA without saying necessarily PDA or explaining to him what it is, like, a couple weeks ago, probably more like a month or so ago, I asked him, what does it feel like in your body when you get upset every day? When you have all these little things that get you upset where mommy says no or sissies make being too loud in the car and it's bothering you hearing the sound. What does that feel like in your body? And he told me, mom, it feels like I'm an a big animal trapped in a small cage, and all I can do is fight to get out. And that was mind blowing to me as I I was just listening to some stuff about PDA and didn't really understand it. I was like, wow. That he was able to that, like, even gives me goosebumps right now, that he was able to articulate what that feels like in his body and that he can't think about anything. He there's he doesn't understand anything that's going on.

[00:50:26] Danielle: It's just tunnel vision of how to get out of that cage. That's wild to me to know that he feels that so much every single day, like, 30 times a day. Imagine what that feels like in your body to have that sensation. So as I'm you know, my son overhears our because he overhears every conversation. Yeah. Yeah. You know, a bit of an he oversees our conversation or, you know, he may hear, like, the podcasts that I'm listening to or what I'm the discussions that I'm having, whether it's my with my mom or with my husband. He's like, mom, that makes sense. Like, he's starting to use some of the language already about, like, dysregulation and regulation. So I feel like when I get to that point, I'll be able to explain to him what PDA is, and I feel like he he already is identifying with it that that makes sense and being able to put language to what his body is feeling that I don't feel like it's a detriment to tell him this is what's going on for you or this is what I believe is going on for you because he already recognizes that it resonates with him.

[00:51:29] Casey: Yeah.

[00:51:30] Danielle: That's awesome. Hearing.

[00:51:31] Casey: And he already has a name for his threat response, which is like a caged animal. Mhmm. Which is you know, it's jarring as a parent to hear the experience, but he obviously trusts you so much, and now he has language for that.

[00:51:46] Danielle: And he talks to me about it. He's like, mom, I'm feeling dysregulated. He would even say to me, mom, you're a little dysregulated right now. Why don't you go take some breaths?

[00:51:55] Casey: And you're like, okay. I will. I will. I love it. Well, it sounds like you're doing so much great work and that he's really doing well. And, you know, your husband and your parents are on their own timeline, and PDA are very confronting. They make us confront a lot of our assumptions about things and and how we conceive of ourselves and what is the right thing to do. So it it takes time. It takes time for people. And so that's why I think you focusing on what you're doing and knowing that you don't have the responsibility to change their behavior. You can only model and embody what is working for your child and ask that they respect your experiment and data collection. This is the right track. Yeah. And you know what? You can always pivot. Right? Like, it's not a dogma. It's not like a you have to do it this way.

[00:52:55] Danielle: No. But parenthood isn't. Parenthood is always about finding the right thing for each of your children, and they're gonna be completely different with what their needs are. And it changes as they develop. Their needs change. What's going on for them changes. And as long for me, it's about understanding where are my kids at, what what is their needs, and whatever I can to meet those needs at that time. Yeah. I love a pivot.

[00:53:21] Casey: It's always a pivot. It's always a dance. Well, I would love to hear, if you don't mind afterwards, how your husband and parents received your requests. Okay. Well, it was so nice to meet you, and it was great having you on this show.

[00:53:38] Danielle: Nice to meet you too, Casey. I look forward to working with you on the paradigm shift program in May.

[00:53:45] Casey: Yeah. I'm excited. Oh, I'm so glad you're in it. That's awesome. Yeah. We will see each other there.

[00:53:50] Danielle: Alright. Thank you so much. Thanks. Bye.

[00:53:52] Casey: Bye. Alright, everyone. Thank you for being here. We appreciate you. We hope it was helpful, and we'll see you soon. Bye.